From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Tue Sep 1 11:41:19 1998 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com by elara via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id LAA27317; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:41:13 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gatekeeper.tripos.com (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) id LAA23276 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:41:12 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(206.26.42.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (4.1) id xma023251; Tue, 1 Sep 98 11:40:46 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA24601 for whancients-list; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:34:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [195.89.181.2]) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24597 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:34:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA24053 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:23:18 +0100 (BST) Received: by GWMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:23:49 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: [WAB] WAB Points Values I Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:21:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Hello all, This is the firt part of a two part email explaining how I come up with the points values I use in the army lists I write. The second part of this message has the 'base line stats' I use as a _starting_ point for working out the points values for an army list. I must admit I've held off sending this information out for general consumption because I feared that people might just use it 'straight' to get points values for troops, rather than as a starting place as is intended. On the other hand the information would clearly be useful to those of you working on your own lists, so I've decided in the end to release it. All I ask is that you use the information with restraint and care! HOW IT WORKS ---------------------- I use my base stat line charts to get working points values for troops in an army list. If a troops types characteristics don't fit exactly it's usually quite easy to 'guestimate' a value based on what is on the charts. The value of any equipment is then added on, againing 'guestimating' the value of equipment not on the list These starting points values then get adjusted for things like special abilities, as well as 'gut instinct' if the system brings in a pv that seems too high or too low. To be honest, gut instinct is probably the most important guide to points values; some times a points value just seems wrong, though I'd be hard put to say exactly why. Having got a draft list, all you need to do is start using it, and you can then adjust points values as you go along based on the feedback you get. The important thing is not to be afraid to change a points value if it seems to be wrong, radically if need be. There are two other things well worth bearing in mind when working out the points values for troops in a list. The first is that "points values are internal", and the second is"if in doubt, apply a limit". Points Values Are Internal ------------------------------- By this I mean that the points values for a troop type are only really important with regards to other troops types *from the same list*. For example, there is not much point comparing a Knight from the WotR army list to a Roman Legionary from the Imperial Roman list. All that is important with regard one list and another is that an *army* picked from each list has an equal chance of winning (i.e. a 1,000 army from the WotR list has an equal chance of winning as a 1,000 point army from the Roman list). Returning to the Knight, his points value needs to be compared to the other troop types in the WotR list, and should be set to make players think "hmmmm, should I have more Knights or more Men At Arms, I'm just not sure....". Once you start playtesting the list you can adjust points values both on the 'micro-level', so that there are valid choices between different troop types in the list, and on a 'macro-level' so that it is balanced against other lists. If In Doubt Apply A Limit ------------------------------- Sometimes you'll find that a troop type seems potentially unbalancing, but to change it in any way would either make it not worth having, or would destroy the character of the list. When presented with such a dilema, I find the best thing to do is to apply a limit of some kind (usually 0-X units allowed), rather than changing the points values or rules. This is usually easily justifiable, as the units that give problems are usually the ones that tended to be rather rare. While on this subject, don't be afraid of including what may seem to be 'over the top' units in the army list. In my experience it is these that give an army its real character, and they shouldn't be avoided just because they are hard to balance out. This goes against a recent message on the list warning about a Warhammer (fantasy) style army list 'arms race'. Such criticisms of the Warhammer army books are actually unfounded, and contrary to popular opinion, newer lists perform no better in tournaments than the older ones (the last Warhammer Grand Tournament was won by a Goblin army(!), with an Empire army in 3rd place, while the army that statistically did worst was the recently 'revamped and updated' High Elf list). Where the new lists are better than the older ones is in the variety of troops with interesting special rules and abilities, and it tends to be this that players with older lists point to as 'what they want' in the next edition of their own lists. Anyway, the point is that you should be scared of being a bit over the top sometimes, as long as the result is characterful and playtesting shows that the resulting army is balanced. But that is quite enough of my ramblings. Following is the base points values charts I use, and which I hope that budding list writers will find of use. Jervis Johnson Warhammer Historical Wargames Ltd From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Tue Sep 1 11:55:18 1998 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com by elara via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/951211.SGI.AUTO) for id LAA27752; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:55:16 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gatekeeper.tripos.com (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) id LAA23665 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:55:15 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(206.26.42.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (4.1) id xma023640; Tue, 1 Sep 98 11:54:11 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA25404 for whancients-list; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:54:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [195.89.181.2]) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25399 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:54:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA25655 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:42:45 +0100 (BST) Received: by GWMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:23:49 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: [WAB] Points Values Charts Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:21:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] WARHAMMER ANCIENT BATTLES POINTS VALUES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Below are a number of 'base stat lines', along with a points value. Use these as a guideline to work out the base points cost for a model without any equipment (oo-er missus!). The important thing is that the characteristics below can act as a starting point. This especially applies to points values, which should be adjusted up or down in the light of playtesting and experience. I SAY AGAIN (sorry to shout) THE POINTS VALUES BELOW ARE A STARTING POINT AND SHOULD BE ADJUSTED UP OR DOWN IN THE LIGHT OF PLAYTESTING. RANK & FILE --------------------- NAME* M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts Peasants 4 2 2 3 3 1 2 1 5 3 Skirmishers 5 2 3 3 3 1 3 1 5 3 Barbarians 5 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 5 4 Warriors/Regulars 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 5 Retainers 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 7 Guard 4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8 8 Nobles 5 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 6 8 Knights 4 4 3 4 3 1 4 1 8 9 Light Chariot 8 4 4 3 4 1 4 2 8 30 Heavy Chariot 6 4 4 4 4 2 4 4 8 50 Scythed Chariot 7 3 3 5 4 1 3 1 7 75 * Profile names ('Peasant', 'Warrior' etc) are descriptive titles only and should not be taken too literally! CHARACTERS ---------------------- Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts Officer* 4 4 4 4 3 2 5 2 8 60 Chieftain* 5 5 5 4 4 2 5 3 6 70 Hero* 4 5 5 4 4 2 5 3 8 80 General 4 5 5 4 3 3 6 2 9 115 Warlord 5 6 6 4 4 3 6 4 7 115 Feudal Lord 4 6 6 4 4 3 6 4 9 160 * Army standard bearer can use these stats and base points values too. ABILITIES --------------- Army General +25 points Army Standard +15 points Drilled +2 points Stubborn +3 points Light Troops +0 point Nomad Cavalry +3 points Warband +0 points Frenzy +4 points Hatred +3 points (+25 if character and applies to units led by him) Cause Fear +2 points Cause Terror +4 points Form shield wall +1 point CAVALRY ---------------- Points Value If Wearer: WS/BS 2 WS/BS 3 WS/BS 4+ Movement = 8, +1 save 8 10 12 Movement = 6, +1 save 6 8 10 Warhorse (+1 A) +2 +3 +4 Note: Characters can gnerally have a horse for free, and only pay the points cost to upgrade it to a warhorse. EQUIPMENT POINTS VALUES --------------------------------------------- HAND TO HAND WEAPONS Points Value If Wielder: WS 2 WS 3 WS 4 + Knife, improvised or hand weapon free free free Additional hand weapon 1 1 2 Double handed weapon 1 2 3 Halbard 2 2 3 Throwing Spear 1 1 2 Heavy Throwing Spear 2 2 3 Thrusting Spear 1 1 2 Pike 2 2 3 Kontos 2 2 3 Lance 2 2 3 MISSILE WEAPONS Points Value If Wielder: BS 2 BS 3 BS 4 + Javelin or Dart 1 1 2 Short Bow 1 1 2 (Composite) Bow 1 2 3 Long Bow 2 2 3 Crossbow 2 3 4 Sling 1 1 2 ARMOUR Points Value If Wearer: WS/BS 2 WS/BS 3 WS/BS 4 + Buckler free 1 1 Shield 1 1 2 Large Shield 2 2 3 Light Armour 1 2 3 Heavy Armour 2 3 4 Barding for steed 4 4 4 WACKY STUFF ----------------------- WAR ENGINES Points Value If Crew: BS 2 BS 3 BS 4 + Bolt Thrower S*3 S*5 S*7 Stone Thrower S*10 S*10 S*10 ELEPHANTS African Elephant 100 Indian Elephant 125 Crew as infantry* Mahout included above * count a howdah as a large shield for each crew. From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Wed Oct 28 08:48:23 1998 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id IAA47754 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:48:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id IAA18074 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:48:20 -0600 Received: from orion.starlink.com(206.26.42.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (4.1) id xma017821; Wed, 28 Oct 98 08:46:51 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id HAA28404 for whancients-list; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:39:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [195.89.181.2]) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28387 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:39:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA17682; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:36:09 GMT Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id <44GSKNAK>; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:38:39 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Cc: Donald Effinger Subject: RE: [WAB] A few questions for Jervis... Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:38:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9011 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Donald Effinger asked the following questions about AoA: > 1. Will you include leaders/chieftains/officers to each list like the > Barbarian one has? I have used this army and it adds to the game I > think. You can create characters for your own games with names and > histories. I think it adds to the 'fun' of the game without being too > overboard really. Yeah, we could do it ourselves but maybe something > specific for each army? > A: The AoA are of necessity rather short, and so won't include the range of character options used in the full length lists like those in the WAB rules. However, we do plan to do a range of 'proper' army books, that will have longer and more detailed lists, and will include the full range of options. > 2. Do you intend to add real historical character stats as well? > A: Again, not in AoA, but they will certainly be included in the proper lists. > 3. Will you have much more in the way of troop types or a blurb about > each army? How about tactics common to each individual army? > A: Same answer! > 4. Have you worked with the Foundry or any other miniature company to > advise them to produce figs to fill in gaps in any lines? The Foundry, > for instance, doesn't have any figs for Alexander's army (although Old > Glory does). > A: As the Perry's make most of the Foundry range and are co-authors of the WAB rules, there is a certain amount of cross-over between the two companies! However, this isn't a formal, planned process (actually, none of the Warhammer Historical stuff could be called planned...), it's based on enthusiasm and interest. > 5. Do you see (down the road) future projects for WAB or is this the > end? What about more lists or the gunpowder era? > A: I think there'll be more stuff, but I'm not sure what or when. To be honest, the biggest problem we have with WAB at the moment is that there is a danger it will turn into hard work, and because of this after AoA is out we're going to ease up a bit and just let things develop at a easy-going, very laid back pace. After all, we do this in our spare time as a fun project rather than a serious business, and we want to keep it that way if we can. > Comments now... I like the system and it has opened up another area to > game for me that I hadn't gotten into before. We're having a great time > with these rules. Being selfish now, I'd like to see a gun powder set of > rules for use through the American Civil War. My SYW and F&I figs need a > solid set of rules. The current ones I'm using suck. > A: We did play some Napoleonic, ACW and Colonial games using the WH rules as a basis, and while they worked OK, it was clear that some major changes were needed to get a game that captured the character of these periods. Recently we had another go at a Colonial game using the new 40K system as the basis for the rules, and this worked *much* better, so we'd like to do some more experimenting using a modified set of 40K rules for gunpowder games. I'll let people know more as and when we get the chance to play some more games. > Now one question... Can chariots use the throwing spears as the cavalry > do? > A: Yes you can. Chariots count as cavalry for weapon use rules. Jervis Johnson From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Fri Oct 30 05:51:52 1998 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id FAA10792 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 05:51:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id FAA01624 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 05:51:49 -0600 Received: from orion.starlink.com(206.26.42.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (4.1) id xma001606; Fri, 30 Oct 98 05:51:02 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id EAA27377 for whancients-list; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 04:02:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [195.89.181.2]) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA27241 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 04:02:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA17005 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:58:15 GMT Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id <44GSK3F3>; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:00:49 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: RE: [WAB] Cheiftains Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:00:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9011 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Keith Williamson asked: > If my unit gets hit by missle fire , is there a chance that the chieftain > takes a hit and wound ? > I says something about template weapons and "look out sir" > but what about normal missle fire ? > A: Not as such. You can target the character if he is in the front rank and the closest target (or equal closest), but he will benefit from the 'look out sire' rule for any hits you score. See page 42 of the rules 'Shooting At Characters'. Jervis From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Tue Nov 17 12:25:18 1998 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id MAA17455 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:25:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id MAA16792 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:25:16 -0600 Received: from orion.starlink.com(206.26.42.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (4.1) id xma016710; Tue, 17 Nov 98 12:24:27 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA04790 for whancients-list; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:23:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [195.89.181.2]) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04783 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:23:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk ([195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA11061 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:04:14 GMT Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:08:06 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: P: RE: [WAB] FAQ and Fleeing Troops Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:08:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] When a unit breaks in combat it is destroyed if its pursuers beat its dice roll. The pursuers don't have to actually catch the unit, just beating the dice roll is sufficent to destroy the unit. A similar thread to this came up on the 40K list recently, and the explanation of the units destruction is the same; they have been so closely persued by the enemy that what was a fairly orderly retreat turns into a full-scale and head-long rout. The fleeing unit's cohesion falls apart completely, and so it is removed from play as it can no longer function effectively as a combat unit. The pursuing unit then makes its pursuit move, in the direction the fleeing unit would have fled, and smacking into any enemy units that get in the way. If the later happens the pursuer counts as charging in the subsequent combat phase. We've always played the rule this way, and from experience reserve lines are still useful. For a start, assuming equal movement rates, a fleeing unit is odds on to get away, and a second line allows you to engage the pursuers with fresh units while the unit that was fleeing recovers. A second line also allows you to plug gaps resulting from units being destroyed. This said, it is rare for their to be enough troops on the table in a game of Warhammer for reserves to be really useful. (Try playing along the narrow width of the table instead of its length and adding a turn or two to game length if you want to make reserves more of a factor. This is also a good way of playing games that involve Nomad Horde armies). Jervis Johnson From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Wed Nov 18 14:56:00 1998 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id OAA14341 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:55:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id OAA22600 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:55:55 -0600 Received: from orion.starlink.com(206.26.42.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (4.1) id xma022552; Wed, 18 Nov 98 14:43:57 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id NAA10292 for whancients-list; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:44:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [195.89.181.2]) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10287 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:44:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA24024 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 20:32:54 GMT Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:36:47 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: RE: [WAB] Open Questions Alexander list Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:36:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Jeff Jonas asked the following questions: > Question: > 1.Wedge: Can all figures in a wedge fight if attacked in the flank or > rear? > Yes. > Suggestions: > 1. Hypaspist controversy: Since nobody can agree what the friggin > Hypaspists were armed with please allow them to have the options of a > large > shield (after all they are called (shield bearers), and at least they > should > have the option to be drilled (Chaeronea, dealing with chariots). My > personal conviction is that Hypaspists although in light formation should > be > able to form phalanx also- maybe at the cost of 1 movement point? I feel > that forcing Hypaspists to be armed with javelins is incorrect- this > should > be an option- thrusting spears should be the default equipment, augmented > by > extra javalins. I also believe that more than one Hypaspist unit should be > allowed if they are left in their current stats, Alexander's army usually > had three "regiments" of Hypaspists. > If this were a 'full' list, as opposed to a 2 page 'short' list I'd be tempted to agree with much of the above. However, going into this much detail is not what AoA is about, so I think that the Hypaspist option is pretty much OK as it is. > 2. Elephants should have barding options. Also the Ptolemies used African > elephants instead of Indian. > Barding sounds cool, especially as its a 'model driven' kind of thing. I'll probably stick to one type of elephant though, on grounds of keeping things simple. > 3. Allies- I feel that greek mercenaries should not be allowed as allies, > they should be included in the army list- maybe under phalanx type. > Allowing > to ally with the Theban Sacred band, and Spartan Hoplites is totally > unheard > of historically- and 100% of my allies would be picked from these crack > troops- especially against Romans. Therefore I suggest that Greek > mercenary > Hoplites be added to the list, and they should be cheaper with less > options > than phalangites. The same argument holds for Persians. > I actually don't agree on this one. If you want a historical army, you can field it with the list using Greeks or Persians as allies and simply not taking the troops types that weren't used. On the other hand, I can't see any reason why, for example, the Theban Sacred Band *couldn't* have fought in Alexander's army. All it would have taken is for the Greeks not to have opposed Philip and ally with him instead against the Persians... interesting 'what ifs' like this are rather fun, in my opinion, any way. > 4. We found long ago while play testing house rules that you cannot allow > light troops to attack main battleline units in the flank/rear and expect > the game to end up remotely resembling an ancient battle- in effect the > game > turned on who fielded the most elite light infantry! Therefore I suggest > as > a house rule and possible rule amendment that all troops acting as > skirmishers cannot remove a rank bonus and do not gain the flank/rear > bonus. > Formed light infantry affect units as normal, as does formed light > cavalry. > This hasn't really been the problem for us that it seems to have been for other players. However, AoA includes a couple of new 'optional rules' that will help mitigate this problem (but you'll need to wait until the book is published in January or February next before details of the new rules will be released!) > 5. I feel that the targeting of characters rule in WAB is out to lunch. > Characters are actually easier to hit than in WFB (where singling out that > scary warboss would seem easier!). Nobody's general will last against any > Missile army when targeted by 20 archers or bolt throwers over the period > of > a game. You have in effect sent generals skulking into the rear areas by > themselves-. > Again, its not a problem in our games. Remember you can only shoot at him if he's the closest model! > 6. Indian archers should have the range of longbows, but the striking > power > of regular bows- this increases the Indian bows ability without turning > the > Hydaspes into Agincourt! How come elephants in india cost 165 points? They > should go to Rome and round up some of those 65 points elephants! > Not wanting to start a whole new 'Indian Longbow' debate, I think I'll just stick with them the way they are! After all, the list does include an option to downgrade them if you want to. As for those Roman elephants, you'll just have to blame it on the superiority of Roman army quartermasters... Jervis From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Thu Dec 17 10:04:23 1998 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id KAA86195 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:04:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id KAA23514 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:04:21 -0600 Received: from orion.starlink.com(206.26.42.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (4.1) id xma023491; Thu, 17 Dec 98 10:03:36 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id IAA09500 for whancients-list; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:54:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [195.89.181.2]) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09488 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:54:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA10672 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:50:41 GMT Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:54:20 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jervis Johnson To: WAB Mailing List Subject: [WAB] P: Slingshot, and News! Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:54:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] As a follow-up to RJM's message about Slingshot 200, I thought you all might be interested in my letter to Steve Neate about the article, especially is it also includes some information on projects we're working on at the moment (working on which also explain why I don't contribute to the mailing list as much as I'd like!). Jervis ---------- From: Jervis Johnson Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 14:08 To: 'editor@soa.org.uk' Subject: Reformed History > Hello Steve, > > Below is a letter for Guardroom, mainly inspired by Karl Ranitzsch's > article in Slingshot 200. I'd appreciate it if you could get get it in > Guardroom; don't worry, it's short(ish) and to the point, and you'll see > why I'd > like it printed after you've read it. I also use the letter to wax lyrical > about stuff we've been working on and which we hope to get out over the > course of nest year. Feel free to lop off the shameless advertising if you > don't want this kind of thing on the letters page. > > That's all for now, apart from to say that, Karl's article aside, I > thought that > issue 200 was really good. Congratulations, and keep up the good work. > > > Jervis > > FOR GUARDROOM > > It's a while since I've been in touch, but Karl Ranitzsch's article in > Slingshot 200 (Deformed History) has fired me up and I just had to put one > thing straight. Fortunately I'm used to being savaged by critics, and so > readers will no doubt heave a sigh of relief when I say I'm not going to > write a point by point rebuttal of Karl's work, as I've learnt that such > efforts are invariably a huge waste of time. At the end of the day both > Karl and I know we're right, so what's the point of arguing?!? > > However, in his article Karl rather implies that I'm some kind of anti-DBM > fanatic, bent on ridiculing Phil Barker's work, and ignorant and > comtemptuous of any other rules other than my own. This is not at all what > I said in the article, but to make things crystal clear, I'd like to state > for the record that I greatly admire the Wargames Research Group and all > that they have done for the ancient wargames hobby, and consider Phil > Barker to be one of greatest wargame designers of all time. Further, I > consider DBA and DBM to be innovative rules system that have almost > single-handedly saved ancient wargaming from the doldrums into it was of > danger of vanishing before they came out. I regularly play DBA (I just > love > its elegance and simplicty), and plan to carry on doing so. These, amongst > many others, are the reasons that we credit WRG with, and I quote, > 'keeping > the flame of ancient wargaming alive' in the Warhammer Ancient Battle > rulebook. It is also why I put the Games Workshop events organiser in > touch > with J D McNeil and suggested they hold one of the DBM Doubles Masters in > the gaming hall that is part of GW's Head Quarters. Really and truly, > this > hobby is to small to be riven by fractious arguments about which set of > rules is best. > > But enough of such things. Part of the reason of my recent silence is > that I've had my nose to the proverbial grindstone working away on 'Armies > Of Antiquity' (AoA for short). This is the first supplement for Warhammer > Ancient Battles, and is a 48 page book that has 22 new army lists. AoA > came about because quite a few of you have asked if there is any chance of > getting hold of an army list for your favourite army. To be honest we'd > originally planned to bring out army books at quite a leisurely pace, but > such has been the demand that Nigel Stillman, Allen Curtis and myself have > put together a selection of 'short' army lists for use with WAB for the > most popular ancient armies we can think of. Wargames Illustrated had a > preview version of the Ancient Greek list, while MWAN ran a preview > version of the Late Roman list, and if you've seen these you'll have some > idea of the format of the lists. AoA should be out by the time you read > this, includes lists for the following armies: > > Sumerian, Egyptian, Hittite, Trojan Wars, Assyrian, Persian, Ancient > Greek, Alexander & Successors, Indian, Republican Roman, Carthaginian, > Late Roman, Cataphract, Byzantine, The Nomad Hordes, Saracen, Saxon, > Viking, Norman, Crusader, Chinese, Samurai > > AoA will be followed by Nigel Stillman's Biblical period supplement, which > we hope will end up as something of a cross between a Warhammer fantasy > style army book and an Ospry book. We've just started editing the > manuscript, and Alan Perry has done a lovely piece of art as the cover. > > Meanwhile Stephen and Duncan Patten of Gripping Beast have been working > away on a similar supplement covering the Viking age in the British Isles, > and which they have promised faithfully to get finished by March. We have > long been fans of the Gripping Beast range of miniatures, so it has been a > real pleasure to work with them on this project, and it has to be said > that the dark ages are a period that is extremely well suited to the WAB > rules. > > There is more, but I won't go on. Suffice to say that with what we're > doing, Terry Gore's new rules, the Piquet ancient's supplement, and new > WRG material, 1999 should be a great year for ancient wargamers! > > Jervis Johnson > Warhammer Historical Wargames > From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Thu Dec 17 10:44:32 1998 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id KAA90880 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:44:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id KAA25987 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:44:30 -0600 Received: from orion.starlink.com(206.26.42.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (4.1) id xma025955; Thu, 17 Dec 98 10:43:55 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA11925 for whancients-list; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:34:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [195.89.181.2]) by orion.starlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11917 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:33:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA13631 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:30:36 GMT Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:34:16 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jervis Johnson To: WAB Mailing List Subject: [WAB] P: Charging Through Skirmishers (rule) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:34:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9003 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] The debate on the list about charging through skirmishers and using them to screen other units has prompted a similar, no less heated, debate in the Studio on the same subject. Much has been the gnashing of teeth, as Nigel has argued to be allowed to charge his chariots through their accompanying chariot runners, while hardened Warhammer players like Tuomas and Alessio have argued against making skirmishers even more useful than they already are. However, out of this debate has come the following rule that allows you to charge through skirmishers, while at the same time not allowing them to get out of hand. Here it is. Please feel free to use it in your games, as we will in ours from now on, but *please* show the rule to your opponent at the start of the battle if you want to avoid getting into an argument! Jervis Johnson --------------------------------------------------------------------- SKIRMISHER SCREENS Troops that are in skirmish formation can be used to *screen* friendly units that are within 2" of the skirmishers. A single unit of skirmishers can screen any number of friendly units, just as long as all the screened units have a model within 2" of a model from the unit in skirmih formation. A unit that is screened by a unit in skirmish formation counts as being in soft cover if it is shot at by a unit that draws a line of sight through the skirmish screen. If a unit being screened declares a charge, then the skirmish screen may 'flee' out of the way. The screening unit makes its move in the Declare Charges segment of the movement phase rather than the compulsory move segment, before the chargers are moved or charge reactions are made, and they *are* therefore allowed to attempt to rally in the ensuing 'rally fleeing troops' segment of the movement phase. This aside they are treated in the same manner as any other fleeing unit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Mon Jan 25 14:17:57 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id OAA93730 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:17:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id OAA26823 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:17:57 -0600 Received: from unknown(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma026492; Mon, 25 Jan 99 14:15:36 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA21584 for whancients-list; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:16:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (ah-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.217.154]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA21580 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:16:37 -0700 (MST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.0) id OAA23380 for whancients@warpzone.com; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:58:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:57:40 -0500 From: Jervis Johnson <... Subject: [WAB] How To Order AoA To: WAB Mailing List Message-ID: <199901251458_MC2-67EC-62F8@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by orion.starlink.com id NAA21581 Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by orion.starlink.com id NAA21584 X-Mozilla-Status: 9001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Steve Miller and others have asked how to get hold of AoA, so I'm sending the list a copy of the information sheet I've put together about the book. Unfortunately this is still going to leave you guys in the States and Australia stuck with having to try and sort out bank drafts or whatever i= f you want to order the book direct from us, as we still can't take credit cards (I know, I know, charmingly archaic isn't it?!? : )). On the other hand I now have some good contacts with some North American and Australia= n distributors, so I would imagine that copies of the rules will be heading across the Atlantic very soon and should be available in the colonies within a week or ten days, rather than it taking ages like it did for the main rules. Anyway, here's that information sheet (please feel free to copy it and repost it anywhere or to anyone!): ARMIES OF ANTIQUITY Armies of Antiquity is the first supplement for Warhammer Ancient Battles. The forty-eight page book contains army lists which cover all of the most famous armies of the ancient world, from the chariot armies of ancient Egypt through to armies of Crusading Knights. What's In It? Armies of Antiquity includes: =B7 New rules to use in your Warhammer Ancient Battles games =B7 Twenty-two new army lists =B7 Seven 'Tribal Variations' for the Barbarian army list in Warhammer Ancient Battles =B7 A Praetorian Guard variation for the Roman army list in Warhammer Anc= ient Battles Which Armies Are Covered? Armies of Antiquity includes lists for all of the following armies: Sumerian, Egyptian, Hittite, Trojan Wars, Assyrian, Persian, Ancient Gree= k, Alexander & his Successors, Ancient Indian, Republican Roman, Cathaginian= , Late Roman, Cataphract, Byzantine, The Nomad Hordes, The Saracens, Saxon, Viking, Norman, Crusader, Ancient Chinese, and Samurai. Why'd You Do It? When we first published Warhammer Ancient Battles we always knew that we'= d need to produce army lists. However, we hadn't anticipated just how quick= ly the rules would take off, and just how vocal the demand for new lists wou= ld be. Our original plan had been to produce army books that covered a specific period of history, each with their own set of army lists, but it soon became apparent that this wouldn't satisfy the demand from players w= ho wanted a list for their favourite army right now. Enter Nigel Stillman, w= ho suggested we put together a set of 'short' army lists for the most popula= r armies. Thus Armies Of Antiquity was born. What Are The Lists Like? Each list covers two pages, and includes a short introduction, points values, profiles, equipment for the troops in the army, and details of th= e army's composition. In addition each army has special rules for appropria= te unique troops, weapons or tactics that it used. We've done our best to ensure that each army list has its own character and style, so that no tw= o armies will fight in the same way when they are used, while at the same time are flexible enough for you to create an army that suits your own tastes and style of play. How Do I Get It? Armies Of Antiquity is available in specialised wargames stores everywher= e (if your local store doesn't have it, why not get them to contact us at t= he address below and ask for our trade terms). Alternatively, you can order Armies Of Antiquity directly from us for 7.50 UK pounds plus postage and packing (1.00 UK pound in the UK, 2.00 UK pounds for the rest of Europe, and 3.00 UK pounds anywhere else in the world). Orders should be sent to Warhammer Historical Wargames Ltd, PO Box 5226, Nottingham, NG7 2WT. Sorr= y, but we can't take credit card orders at the present time. If you have any other questions, please fell free to write to us at the address above, or email us at jervisj@games-workshop.co.uk. From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Tue Jan 26 08:40:42 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id IAA15981 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:40:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id IAA03685 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:40:38 -0600 Received: from unknown(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma003426; Tue, 26 Jan 99 08:39:12 -0600 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id HAA17614 for whancients-list; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:46:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from arl-img-1.compuserve.com (arl-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.217.131]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA17610 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:46:36 -0700 (MST) Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-1.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.17) id JAA17754 for whancients@warpzone.com; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:27:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:27:27 -0500 From: Jervis Johnson <... Subject: [WAB] Hypaspist Light Armour To: WAB Mailing List Message-ID: <199901260927_MC2-6809-4E05@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by orion.starlink.com id HAA17611 Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] What can I say, other than oooops! Sorry, the Hypaspists should be allowed the option of having light armour, but they can't in the AoA list. The reason for the ommision is that I tend to go along with the idea that the Hypaspists (along with most of the rest of Alexanders Macedonian infantry) were trained *either* to fight in a phalanx with a pike (in which case they'd count as a 'Royal Guard' phalanx), or to oprate as light infantry, in which case they'd give up their armour and pike and are covered by the Hypaspist entry in the list. However, there are plenty of people that think that they operated as a sort of hybrid 'light phalanx', and I really should have remembered to include such an option in the list. As a house rule, allow the Hypasists to replace their javelins with a thrusting spear and light armour at a cost of +3 points. Jervis Johnson Warhammer Historical Wargames Ltd From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Thu Jan 28 12:23:51 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall [192.160.145.217]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id MAA70532 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:23:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id MAA18106 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:23:49 -0600 Received: from unknown(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma017926; Thu, 28 Jan 99 12:22:15 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA04487 for whancients-list; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:05:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from hil-img-7.compuserve.com (hil-img-7.compuserve.com [149.174.177.137]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA04483 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:05:40 -0700 (MST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-7.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.17) id MAA27096; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:46:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:45:05 -0500 From: Jervis Johnson <... Subject: [WAB] 40K Colonial Ammendments (long!) To: WAB Mailing List , "Michael W Cannon" Message-ID: <199901281245_MC2-685B-E07C@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by orion.starlink.com id LAA04484 Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by orion.starlink.com id LAA04487 X-Mozilla-Status: 9001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] OK guys, here are my ammendments to the 40K rules. Unless they say otherwise the new 40K rulesapply. Note that the new rules are rather different to both Warhammer and the old 40K rules, so these ammendments will only work (and make sense!) if you have both. Also, these are playte= st notes, not complete rules - if you run into something not covered, make i= t up on the spot! Jervis Johnson WARHAMMER COLONIAL=20 Amendments to 40K for 19th Century colonial warfare. FORMATIONS Troops move and fight in formations, and different formations have different effects on a units ability to move, fire and fight in close combat. Regular troops have been extensively drilled and trained and can assume a variety of precision formations. Irregulars are not professional soldiers at all; they can be hastily mustered civilians or warrior nomads= , but in either case they are not trained to move in exact formations. Regular troops may be in column, line, square or in open order. Any regul= ar unit can change its formation in the movement phase at the cost of half o= f it's movement. Units may not change formation in the assault phase. The unit may make the change either at the beginning or the end of its move. If it changes at the beginning of its move, then its movement rate is bas= ed on its new formation; if it changes at the end, then its movement rate is based on its original formation.=20 Irregulars must be in a warband if there are ten or more of them in the unit, or skirmish formation if less than ten. A unit reduced to less than 10 models must adopt skirmish formation in its next movement phase. Note that irregulars have no control over what formation they use; small units spread out, while large units 'mob up'. Artillery may be limbered or unlimbered. In both cases the gun crew are treated as being in open order.=20 The units in a formation must be arranged according to the following descriptions of the specific formations: Line: One or two figures deep and as wide as desired. All bases touching. Column: Two to four figures wide, and more figures wide than deep. All bases touching. Square: Four lines forming a hollow box and facing outwards. All bases touching. Open Order: All models must be within 1-2" of another model in the formation. Note that models must be at least 1" apart.=20 Warband: A rough square, roughly as many figures wide as deep. Figures ma= y be touching or up to =BD" apart. Skirmish: Figures may be must be =BD" to 1" apart. No models may be touching. FORMED UNITS Units in line, column, or square are called formed units. This has a numb= er of effects of the way that they work in the game.=20 The following rules apply to formed units: 1. Units in column add +3" to their move in the movement phase only.=20 2. Units in square subtract 3" from their move in the movement phase and may not charge in the assault phase. 3. Formed units move following the rules for movement in Warhammer (i.e. they must travel ahead, changing direction by wheeling, etc).=20 4. Formed units must choose the lowest dice roll when moving through difficult terrain. 5. Formed units must use the shooting fire arcs from Warhammer (i.e. 45 degree). 6. Formed units block the LOS for friendly models in the same manner as enemy units. 7. The front two ranks of a formed unit may fire (i.e. the front rank doesn't block the LOS for models from the same unit). 8. Formed units may deliver a volley instead of shooting normally (see below). 9. Formed units that fail a morale check become shaken before they fall back (see below). VOLLEY FIRE Formed units are allowed to deliver a volley. Volley fire is not all tha= t accurate, but can halt an enemy attack by its morale effect. You must declare if a unit will volley fire or shoot normally ('fire at will') before it shoots. Unless you say otherwise it is assumed a unit wi= ll fire normally. Volley fire is limited to a single shot and a maximum rang= e of 12", regardless of the rate of fire of the weapon being used. Halve the number of hits scored with volley fire, rounding fractions up, then roll to wound and save normally. Units that take any casualties from volley fire must take a morale check, rather than only if they take 25% casualties. In addition the moral check is taken with a -1 modifier for every two casualties inflicted by the volley. CHARGE REACTIONS A unit charged by an enemy may make a charge reaction. You may not make charge reactions against units in open order or skirmish formation, as it is assumed that they will use cover and guile to 'be on you' before you c= an react. A unit that can make a charge reaction may either: Stand Fire Stand: Follow the normal rules. Fire: As fire, but the unit may shoot at the unit that declared the charg= e. The shooting attack is made using all the normal rules. Note that units with slow firing weapons (see below) must be loaded in order to choose th= is option. All other weapons shoot as if they were stationary. An attacking unit that suffers 25% casualties must pass a morale check before making i= ts charge, and can only carry on with the charge if the moral check is passe= d. SHAKEN UNITS Large units are steadier than smaller units and more likely to hold their ground. To represent this a unit with ten or more models that fails a morale check becomes shaken rather than falling back. A shaken unit may not advance towards the enemy and may not charge. If it fails a second morale check before it rallies then it falls back. A shake= n unit may decide to voluntarily fall back, in which case it falls back one move and then reverts to shaken status. A unit rallies from being shaken in the same manner as it regroups from falling back. GOING TO GROUND Units in open order or skirmish formation may 'go to ground' instead of moving normally. A unit that goes to ground can only move D6", but counts as being in cover with a 5+ saving throw. SNIPING Units in open order or skirmish formation may 'snipe' instead of shooting normally. A unit that snipes may not move at all, but may shoot at up to double its normal range. However, only half the models in the unit may shoot (rounding fractions up), it being assumed that the other half are aiming carefully, adjusting the sights on their rifles, and so on. A unit may go to ground and snipe in the same turn. =20 BASIC WEAPON TYPES Name Rng Str AP Notes Magazine 24" 3 5 Rapid Fire Breach-Loader 24" 3 5 Single Shot Muzzle Loader 24" 3 5 Slow Fire Flintlock 12" 3 6 Slow Fire, smoothbore Gatling Gun 36" 4 5 Machine Gun Cannon G48" 5 5 Blast Bayonet CC user - +1 initiative Shield CC - - +1 save Webley 6" 3 5 Pistol Single Shot: May fire once up to 12" if any models moved, or once up to maximum range if the unit was stationary. (As an aside, regular troops armed with magazine rifles during this period were not normally allowed t= o use the magazines until the enemy were very close. Instead they had to lo= ad single bullets directly into the chamber, effectively converting their magazine rifle into a single-shot weapon. This was done because it was feared that troops would waste all of their ammunition by firing away 'in= to the brown', and then have none left when the enemy charged. Whether they would have wasted their ammo or not is subject to conjecture, but it is rather nicely represented by the fact that magazine rifles only real advantage over a single shot rifle comes into effect at close range!) Slow Firing: These weapons take some time to reload. To represent this, only every other model can shoot when the unit fires, it being assumed th= at the other models are reloading at the time. Alternatively, units that fir= e a volley may shoot with all models in the unit, if this is preferred, but forfeit their next shot while they reload. Smoothbore: This weapon has no rifling, making it very inaccurate at anything other than point blank range. To represent this any shots fired over 6" range will only hit on a roll of 6+, no matter what the BS of the firer. Machine Gun: The machine guns of this period were very effective at mowin= g down troops in a the dense formations used, but prone to jamming. To represent his, the following shooting rules are used; Instead of rolling = to hit, simply roll a D6 if the target unit is in range. The number rolled i= s the number of hits scored. If desired you can carry on firing with the machine gun, by rolling the D6 again, and adding the number rolled to the number of hits scored. However, if the second dice roll matches the first dice roll, no hits are scored and the gun jams. Assuming the gun doesn't jam, you may roll a third time, but this time the gun will jam if the new dice roll matches either of the previous dice rolls. Assuming that the gu= n doesn't jam you may roll again, and so on, until you jam the machine gun automatically on the seventh attempt! Here's an example of how this works. Cpl Smith opens up with his gatling gun on a warband of Zulus 24" away. H= e rolls a '2', scoring two hits on the enemy unit. This is clearly not good enough, so he keeps cranking away, and rolls a second D6. This time he scores a '4', inflicting another four hits making six in total. Still not satisfied he carries on shooting and rolls a third D6. However this time = he rolls another '2', which jams the machine gun. Roll a D6 to see what has happened to a jammed machine gun: 1-2 =3D Broken, can't be used for the r= est of the battle; 3-4 =3D badly jammed, may not shoot next turn; 5-6 =3D min= or jam, may shoot normally next turn. IMPORTANT: Machine guns are much less effective against troops in an open formation. To represent this each rol= l of the dice will only score one hit on a unit in open order or skirmish formation, instead of the number rolled on the dice. However, the number = on the dice is still used for jams. For example, Cpl Smith above would have score two hits if the zulus had been in skirmish formation before jamming the gatling gun. Pistol: May 'rapid fire'. In addition, may be used in close combat, in which case opponent's do not receive an armour save. Models armed with sword and pistol gain +1 attack for additional cc weapon, and opponent's receive no save. CHARACTERISTIC SUMMERY WS BS S T W I A L= d Sv =20 British Infantry 3 3 3 3 1 3 1= =20 8 6+ Equipment: Rifle and bayonet =20 Zulu 3 1 3 3 1 3 1 8= =20 6+ Equipment: Rifle, or spear (=3DCC weapon) and shield =20 Boar 2 4 3 3 1 3 1 7= =20 - Equipment: Rifle Afghan 3 2 3 3 1 3 1 7= =20 - Equipment: Jezzail, or sword (=3DCC weapon) and shield =20 'Leader' +1 +1 +1 +1 += 1 +1 From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Tue Feb 2 14:53:08 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id OAA09115 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:53:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id OAA10676 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:53:08 -0600 Received: from unknown(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma010637; Tue, 2 Feb 99 14:51:33 -0600 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA04890 for whancients-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:01:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from arl-img-11.compuserve.com (arl-img-11.compuserve.com [149.174.217.141]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA04886 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:01:47 -0700 (MST) Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-11.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.17) id PAA01473 for whancients@warpzone.com; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:40:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:40:01 -0500 From: Jervis Johnson <... Subject: [WAB] Detachment Rules (was Hooray for Phil/French Crossbows) To: WAB Mailing List Message-ID: <199902021540_MC2-68F7-1644@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by orion.starlink.com id OAA04887 Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9003 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] I've been interested in discussion between Tony and Steve about the detachment rules in the Empire/Skaven lists. Recently Tuomas has been working on a varient version of the Empire detachment rule, that allows the main unit and any detachments to make charge reactions if *any* of the units are charged. This includes a special countercharge reaction that allows the unit to make a charge move, as long as the charge is made against the unit that caused the charge reaction in the first place (I hope that makes sense!). The countercharge option is evil, as it usually hits the attacker in the flank. The result is that if the units are set up in a sensible formation then an attacker has to attack all of the component units at the same time, or end up being double or triple teamed. Even if used without the counter-charge option the rule makes having detachments of missile troops a very useful option for a close combat unit. Jervis From JervisJ@games-workshop.co.uk Mon Mar 1 06:04:02 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id GAA79465 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:04:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id GAA15265 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:04:01 -0600 Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk(195.89.181.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma015249; Mon, 1 Mar 99 06:03:29 -0600 Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.89.181.242]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0+RBL+Shub-Inter+ORBS) with ESMTP id MAA27444 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:03:38 GMT Received: by GWMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:02:21 -0000 Message-ID: <2146350959CED211A51300A0C949BD9001401D@GWMAIL> From: Jervis Johnson To: Anthony Edwards Subject: RE: Armies of Antiquity Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:02:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Thanks for the email, and apologies for the delay getting back to you (I've been out of the office for a week). Unfortunately the gift voucher is subject to the joint absent-mindedness of myself, the Perry's and Wargames Foundry! However, I'll chase them up again this week and see if they've been sent out yet... Jervis > ---------- > From: Anthony Edwards > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 0:05 > To: jervisj@games-workshop.co.uk > Subject: Armies of Antiquity > > Jervis, > > My copy of Armies of Antiquity arrived last week. I just wanted > to say thanks. I would have done so earlier but I was out sick > for a few days. Despite whatever comments you may have heard > about it, I really liked the book. It really filled the quick-army > list nook well. > > A quick question about the Foundry gift voucher for a runner-up prize > - > is that something they keep on record there or was I subject to your > infamous absentmindedness? > > Thanks again, > > Tony > -- > Anthony L. Edwards > Tripos, Inc. > mailto:aedwards@tripos.com > > A fool and his money are soon ... Hey! Where's my wallet? > From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Tue May 25 14:08:12 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id OAA84473 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:08:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id OAA16860 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:07:02 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma016849; Tue, 25 May 99 14:06:39 -0500 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA06653 for whancients-list; Tue, 25 May 1999 11:42:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (mail1-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.222.13]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA06649 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 11:42:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from diamond.co.uk ([194.168.80.95]) by mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA615 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 19:31:22 +0100 Message-ID: <374AEC9F.5ECA6C75@diamond.co.uk> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:32:00 +0100 From: Jervis Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WAB Mailing List Subject: [WAB] More On Errata (and a new address) References: <004601bea6cf$f72c76c0$ab0fecd0@jjonaspc2.verant.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9003 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Hi Guys, Yup, that's right, Liz has retired from writing all of my WAB messages and told me to do it myself : ) Seriously though, I've got a new (hopefully cheaper) home email address, which is: jervis.johnson@diamond.co.uk or you can reach me at my work address: jervisj@games-owrkshop.co.uk Thanks for the continued feedback on the errata sheet. Here are some answera to some of the questions that have come up: Expanded Errata/Missing Optional Rules: I haven't put the rules for skirmisher screens or confident and edgy troops on the errata sheet as they are not really errata. If they prove popular enough I'll include them in a future supplement (probably the WAB Annual I mentioned in the last message) as new rules players can use if they wish. Byzantine Artillery: This is in the allies section because it's fairly rare, and the 25% limit keeps a player from taking an outlandish amount. This said, instead of Allies the catagory should really be called 'Special Troops'. Samurai: I take the point on the Samurai being too good. I can't remember if I've mentioned it before, but one rule I've thought of applying to the Samurai list is to say that they may not have a rank bonus. This would reflect the rather loose and anarchic way the armies fought, and serve to 'reel them back in' quite well too. I must admit I'd forgotten all about this rule, but assuming I don't hear to many screams of protest from you guys, I'll add it in to the errata sheet as follows: P44, Samurai: Units in a Samurai army do not receive a rank bonus. This reflects the loose formations they fought in and their emphasis on heroic 'single combat'. Partizan: I'll be at Partizan, but probably only for the morning session. Why not say that we'll try to meet up in the bar to talk over all things WAB at a certain time, say 11.30 or so? That's all for now, Jervis From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Sun Jun 6 18:11:33 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id SAA80782 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 18:11:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id SAA26228 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 18:10:29 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma026218; Sun, 6 Jun 99 18:09:50 -0500 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA24303 for whancients-list; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:41:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (mail1-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.222.13]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA24297 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:41:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from diamond.co.uk ([194.168.80.190]) by mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA11839 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:30:08 +0100 Message-ID: <375AE9F8.A5209CC@diamond.co.uk> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 22:36:56 +0100 From: Jervis Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WAB Mailing List Subject: [WAB] Levy BS, & Target Priority References: <004101beade5$e4868610$ab0fecd0@jjonaspc2.verant.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Well that will teach me to go to the seaside for a few days (he says, having worked through 250+ messages on his return!). I've read with interest the discussions on levy troops BS, and have to say that I by far prefer the option of simply giving them a BS of 2 over the other options I've seen. And if they were really dreadful troops that had very little impact, I'd even go for giving them a BS of 1! This said, I should note that in WAB we've *deliberately* over-emphasised (sp?) the effect of missile fire, compared to its historical effect in the ancient period. The reason for doing this is simple; it gives missile armies a chance of winning without adding in complex rules to reflect the morale effect of missile fire. Basically, in WAB missile casualties also reflect the fact that heavy missile fire can degrade the effectivness of a unit *without* causing heavy casualties. So, when a unit is wiped out by missile fire (a very rare event in real life), you could instead imagine that what has happened is that the missile fire has driven the unit off, or stopped in operating as a cohesive force. With regard rules for target priority (i.e shooting at the closest target), I must say that bitter experience of players abusing the target priority rules in the 2nd edition of 40K (that's the version previous to the current edition) has made me very wary of such rules. In my experience such rules lead to players moving their units in a very 'gamey' fashion. If you feel that units have to much leeway in who they can fire at, a simpler solution is to reduce their fire arc from 45 degrees to 22.5 degrees, or even straight ahead. This makes it much harder to mass fire on a single target, but avoids fiddly rules that can be exploited. Jervis From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Sun Jun 6 18:11:33 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id SAA81937 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 18:11:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id SAA26227 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 18:10:29 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma026219; Sun, 6 Jun 99 18:09:50 -0500 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA24391 for whancients-list; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:43:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (mail1-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.222.13]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA24387 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:43:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from diamond.co.uk ([194.168.80.190]) by mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA12059 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:31:54 +0100 Message-ID: <375AF639.C9F65B14@diamond.co.uk> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 23:29:13 +0100 From: Jervis Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WAB Mailing List Subject: [WAB] Tournaments, Scenarios & Army Effectivness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] One thing I'd like to bring up with regards 'army effectivness', is the huge effect the scenario can have on this. For example, recently there has been quite lot of discussion about how effective missile armed armies are in WAB (see my other message for more on this). However, little has been said about how much the standard WAB scenario effects this. In a nutshell, it seems to me that instead of fiddeling round with the *army lists*, perhaps we should be looking at the *scenario*. For example, if you're having a lot of trouble with missile armed opponenents, as a simple fix try randomising the distance the two armies have to set up apart (14+2D6" should be about right), or try playing the 'Suprise Attack' scenario from WAB as opposed to the more normal Pitched Battle or Meeting Engagement. In other words, look at a changing the scenario rather than the list. (Funningly enough, I took a similar (though opposite) approach when trying to 'crock' powerful attacking armies in the Warhammer fantasy tournaments I run, when I added in the army break point rule that's in AoA to the standard tournament scenario, in order to give armies that relied on missile fire a chance of winning!) Another good reason for varying the scenario's ou play is that is discourages the use of 'optimised' armies, designed to be good at one type of game. Basically, if you keep on fighting a straight line up and fight battle, you will find that there are certain combinations of troops that do rather better than other combinations. On the other hand, if you tend to play a varied selection of sceanrios, you'll quickly find that what is just great for a pitched battle is not as good when you're trying to make an opposed river crossing before night falls! The problem with this approach is that it's harder to just 'set up and play' anything other than a pitched battle, and, far more importantly, most players like 'even contest' scenarios where both sides set up the same way, and where any special rules apply equally to both sides. This being the case, I think that as a group we should try to come up with six different 'even contest' scenarios, which are varied enough so that an army optimised for any one will do badly in at least half the others. If we can come up with six such set-ups, then I can just start telling players to pick one randomly before they start playing. If we take as a given that Pitched Battle and Suprise Attack are two of the scenarios, that just leaves four more scenarios to come up with... Jervis From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Mon Jun 7 14:04:50 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id OAA07695 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:04:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id OAA21178 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:03:46 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma021125; Mon, 7 Jun 99 14:02:46 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA05465 for whancients-list; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:42:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (mail1-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.222.13]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA05461 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:42:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from diamond.co.uk ([212.250.111.205]) by mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA16988 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 19:30:32 +0100 Message-ID: <375BEDB1.399E8069@diamond.co.uk> Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:05:05 +0100 From: Jervis Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WAB Mailing List Subject: [WAB] Quotes (long and slightly off-topic) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] I thought you guys might be interested in a collection of quotes I put together a few years ago. They are almost all to do with wargaming, with a couple of exceptions. I don't agree with the statements made in all of these quotes, but in very case they caused a reaction, be it irritation or admiration. Suffice to say that in my eyes Charles Grant and Donald Featherstone are *still* unsurpassed in their understanding of what this hobby is *really* all about... "...most boys collect model soldiers but only a small proportion stay with the hobby as they grow older. This perceptive minority have passed over a threshold that leads to many hours of pleasure and satisfaction..." Donald Featherstone, Battles With Model Soldiers "... the participants were at pains to point out that they were not just grown men playing with toy soldiers..." Unknown reporter, Central TV Local News, October 1st 1994. "... To line [figures] up and fire toy guns at them would be far too damaging, besides seeming rather childish (he is already a little touchy about letting his friends know he plays with 'toy soldiers'!)." Donald Featherstone, Battles With Model Soldiers. "... only the rarest of individuals continue to regard the wargamer as a psychopath or retarded child." Charles Grant, The Ancient Wargame. "As all wargames articles need a historical intro to give a spurious veneer of respectability and research, here's mine..." C. A. Jackson, A Queen And A Camel - Who Could Ask For Anything More?, Miniature Wargames October 1994. "These rules are designed for fun, and consequently may not provide a realistic representation of future warfare." M.A. Kay, Fast Play Science Fiction Skirmish Rules, Miniature Wargames May 1994. "... The Trolls... well they're outrageous... which as I've said before I dislike." Steve Blease, Miniature Warriors (review column), Role Player Independent December 1993. "So where does this leave the gamer who wants to indulge in what might be termed 'serious' (though I would prefer, 'adult') F&SF gaming..." John Treadaway, Fantasy Facts (review column), Practical Wargamer March/April 1992. "When my mind drifts back now, it is images rather than coherent narrative which present themselves to me: mist rising from horse lines in the thin wind of a morning by the Danube; long marches, the men ankle-deep in mud behind creaking wagons, as the beech and ash woods of Germany enfold us; a hill-top in northern Spain, when snow fell below us in the valleys but we lay on dry, iron-hard ground under the stars; grizzled centurions lashing at the transport horses, yelling at legionaries to put their shoulder to the wheel that was spinning as if in mockery of their efforts; a boy with blood oozing from his mouth as I rested his dying head on my arm and watched his leg kick; my horse flinching from a bush which parted to reveal a painted warrior, himself gibbering with terror; the sigh of the wind coming off a silent sea; the tinkle of bells across desert sands. Army life is a mere collection of moments." Allan Massie, Tiberius. "I am not going to recount the battle. It was like all battles, only worse than most. Truth to tell, accounts of battles rarely make sense. No, that is not true; they make too much sense. Historians give them a shape they don't possess." Allan Massie, Caeser. "Besides, it does away with the delicious little incidents that stick in one's memory, like the time I was defending a castle against Slim Mumford. My representative figure was standing on top of one of the towers when a big rock from a catapult dropped right on its head, killing it instantly, and causing the castle to surrender. I once lost a Thirty Years War battle on account of the same reason; we were using bouncing cannon balls, and I was standing behind three lines of my troops minding my own business when a cannon ball bounced over them and took my head off. Not to mention another occasion when I was assassinated by my second-in-command who did not like the way I was handling the army!" Tony Bath, Rules Forum, Slingshot Magazine month? year? "I cannot take pleasure in writing or playing with a set [of rules] that does not simulate the mental processes of generalship... Formal scales are an important means with which to tie the game to reality." Phil Barker, Rules Forum, Slingshot Magazine month? year? "Any fool can make a complicated game - it takes imagination and reason to make a simple one, and long days and nights." Archie Cass, quoted by Terrance Wise, Athena Wargames Rules for the Ancient Period (480BC-AD61). "... At the outset, of course, I could have simply set out the basic rules of "Battle", loads of tables of ranges, speeds, effectiveness and so on, and laid it down more or less arbitrarily that this is done in such a manner, that is done this way, etc., but I feel that the battlegamer is keen to know just what the reasoning is behind a particular rule, and for my part, I prefer as I go along, to explain just how I came to some conclusion governing some facet of firepower or tactics. It does, I hope, add a measure of realism as well as encouraging the player to do his own research into the finer points of the military art." Charles Grant, Battle! Practical Wargaming. "If a body including a general receives 2 CPF from secondary shooting and hand to hand combat combined, and its hand to hand random factor dice score -5 and +1 or +2, the general is killed." Phil Barker, War Games Rules 3000 BC to 1485 AD, 7th Edition. "... Briefly, the Battle game - and quite definitely the operative word is "game" - is simply an extension of many other games which have come down through history, the sort of game I mean being those like chess and draughts, where two players set out to defeat each other by skill and guile, not unmixed in many cases with a little luck here and there." Charles Grant, Battle! Practical Wargaming. "Whatever scales are chosen by a rules writer, they are extremely artificial, and a good deal of conniving has to go on to make them work. The fact that a wargames figure may stand 25 feet tall (if ground scale is 1mm = 1 foot) illustrates precisely how tenuous is all discussion about ground and figure scales for wargames... It is another misfortune of wargaming that figure bases are always too deep to allow accuracy in such representations. Thus we are left with realism in tatters and can only say - if the ground and figure scales look right on the tabletop, feel right when used, and give realistic results, then their artificiality is unimportant.' Terrance Wise, Athena Wargames Rules for the Ancient Period (480BC-AD61). "The relationship of movement on the wargames table to ground-scale is a facet of the hobby which gives rise to considerable argument, and it is possible to become bogged-down and frustrated by a host of relatively unimportant details if the wargamer delves too deeply into this rather complicated aspect of wargaming. If it is to be acknowledged that the game is the thing, to be played for enjoyment and relaxation and not as a form of military exercise or training, then the campaigner with model soldiers will be well advised to confine himself to a simple set of rules with a reasonable resemblance to the period in which he is fighting. However, if he has the sort of mind that likes to explore far afield and look in to all corners, he will probably, at some time or another in his wargaming career, find himself embroiled in obtuse calculations that seemingly do little to enhance enjoyment of the game. Certainly the author, in more than fifteen years of wargaming, has never consciously considered other than the simplest aspects of movement and the ground-scale, yet has consistently enjoyed in every period of military history campaigns which have provided realistic resemblance to the tactics and manner of fighting of those periods." Donald Featherstone, Battles With Model Soldiers. "...consider the 'Three S's' of campaiging with model soldiers. 1. SOLDIERS 2. SCENARY 3. SITUATIONS [RULES]" Donald Featherstone, Battles With Model Soldiers "...the basic question of why be a wargamer is a most difficult one to answer... There are all sorts of contributory factors... [Of which] by no means the least important [is] the aesthetic appreciation of colour and panoply and the stirring spectacle of a formed bodies of soldiers, whether this be in actual form or in miniature." Charles Grant, The Ancient Wargame. "[Wargaming] leads to many hours of pleasure and satisfaction as [the wargamer applies] skill and research to turn out colourful and realistic model soldiers and to use them intelligently in a highly competitive and fascinating hobby..." Donald Featherstone, Battles With Model Soldiers "It is assumed, incidentally, that the enthusiast will wish to employ figures rather than he should content himself with coloured blocks, counters or such similar monstrosities." Charles Grant, The Ancient Wargame. "I remember when demonstrating my Seven Years Wars rules at the very first wargame convention held in this country... how impressed [Donald Featherstone] was by his first sight of the figures... in substantial units of over 50 figures each, the infantry, that is. This size of unit does help, I think, a plethora of tiny units tending to make a game look sort of 'bitty'... to me there is nothing like the appearance of, say two or three 50 figure Greek hoplite units in line, or the same number of grenadier units of this size in a Seven Years War army... This is really where the wargame [exercises] its maximum appeal, with the precise movement of bodies of troops on a good-sized playing area - it does contain a strong element of the aesthetic, if I may be so bold." Charles Grant, On Matters Military, Battle magazine, August 1977. "Little Wars is the game of kings - for players in an inferior social position. It can be played by boys of every age from twelve to a hundred and fifty - and even latter if the limbs remain sufficiently supple - by girls of the better sort, and by a few rare and gifted women." H. G. Wells, Little Wars. From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Tue Jun 29 08:32:25 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id IAA03007 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:32:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id IAA08308 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:32:24 -0500 Received: from unknown(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma008259; Tue, 29 Jun 99 08:31:58 -0500 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id FAA18857 for whancients-list; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:56:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (mail1-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.222.13]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id FAA18853 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:56:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from diamond.co.uk ([194.168.80.67]) by mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA584 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:44:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3778BB76.7482B37E@diamond.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:26:30 +0100 From: Jervis Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WAB Mailing List Subject: Re: [WAB] AoA Assyrian list questions References: <19990624020155.19479.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Don asked: > 1) In the section or listing for the Hvy Infantry it says: "Half the unit > may have swords, lt. armor and bows, the other half may have swords, lt. > armor, thrusting spears...". Then it goes on, "Models in a unit can have > different weapon combinations." Does this mean they CAN have it at my > option or do they HAVE to split the unit with different weapons? I would say > it is at my discretion, right? I can have all spears _OR_ bows if I choose. Answer: Strictly by the list (and by history) you should have a mix of models in a unit. However, I really doubt that anybody would have a problem with you fielding a unit where all of the models are armed with the same weapon combinations, but had half of them 'counting as' being armed with a different set of weapons. > 2) These above guys are all considered to be based on 20mm bases, right? We > play line troops are 20mm, lt. infantry and skirmishers are 25mm. So 20mm > for these bowmen too? Answer: Yes. > 3) In the area for Armored Archers & Slingers... It says: "Slingers may fire > even if not in skirmish formation." Does this mean EVERYONE in that section > is considered Lt. infantry? I would assume so from reading this but no where > does it say they are Lt. Infantry. That would mean for someone like me, I'd > have to have two separate archer types painted up, 20mm and 25mm dudes. It > ain't a problem but I just want to know now before I go ahead with these > guys. Answer: The troops are _not_ considered to be light infantry. From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Tue Jun 29 08:32:26 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id IAA03471 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:32:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id IAA08307 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:32:24 -0500 Received: from unknown(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma008262; Tue, 29 Jun 99 08:32:02 -0500 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id FAA18872 for whancients-list; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:57:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (mail1-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.222.13]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id FAA18866 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:56:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from diamond.co.uk ([194.168.80.67]) by mail1-gui.server.ntli.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA606 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:45:08 +0100 Message-ID: <3778BE89.7E6D1808@diamond.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:39:37 +0100 From: Jervis Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WAB Mailing List Subject: Re: [WAB] Fall back in good order -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Phil wrote the following reply, and I couldn't have said it better myself! Jervis Phil Yates wrote: > > [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] > > The guiding rule here is that 'things happen when they happen'. That > means that since FBIGO happens at the end of the flee move, that's > when it happens. Since troops who have fled off table have fled off table, > and cannot come back, they may rally in some other mythical place, but > they can't come back. > > Phil > > >>> "chris morris" Jun 28, 1999 8:14 > am >>> > what happens if you fall back in good order but roll enough movement to > take you over the table edge? do you reform at the table edge or leave the > table? From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Wed Jul 7 12:01:32 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id MAA50155 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:01:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id MAA18514 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:01:31 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma018457; Wed, 7 Jul 99 12:00:50 -0500 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA00566 for whancients-list; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:45:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.182.168.60]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA00562 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:45:57 -0700 (MST) Received: by GWMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:41:25 +0100 Message-ID: <2146350959CED211A51300A0C949BD90350DB8@GWMAIL> From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: RE: [WAB] more on hvy chariots Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:41:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] > >Heavy Chariot Automatic Hits: Only chariot models that can fight cause > >automatic hits. They are bonus hits in addition to the normal hits the > >chariot scores. > > I need for you to just clarify this please... I'll draw up a situation and > > you tell me if I've got this straight, okay? > > 1) Indian hvy chariots charge Alex pikemen. The pikemen get to attack > first > because of their pikes. Then it is the chariots turn to attack and add > their > impact hits. > > or... 2) Indian hvy chariots attack Alex pikemen. The hvy chariots do > their > impact hits, then the pikes go next followed by the regular Indians in the > > hvy chariots. > > From what you have said above plus the re-read from the WAB rule book I'd > say it was number one but I think we have been playing it wrong before. We > > had been playing that that impact hits superceded all 'normal' combat. > Which > of this is true? > > Thanks. > > Don > In Warhammer 5th edition chariot hits take place 'at the start of the combat phase', and precede all other attacks. However, this isn't what is implied in the WAB rules, which are based on the 4th edition WH rulebook when things were a bit more wooly. With my rules lawyers hat on, I'd say that, strictely by the WAB rulebook, a chariots automatic hits occur at the same time the chariot would normally fight, i.e. they are bonus hits that add onto those inflicted by the crew. This works well for heavy chariots, I think, as I have the feeling that they'd rumble at a trot into the enemy line and crush opponents under their wheels. On the other hand the WH 5th version works better for scythed chariots, which will smash into the enemy at a gallop... So, as a general rule automatic hits take place at the same time as the chariot crew fight, but as a house rule let scythed chariots inflict their hits at the start of the combat phase before *anything* else happens. Jervis From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Fri Jul 9 08:54:05 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id IAA14737 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:54:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id IAA29877 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:54:04 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma029736; Fri, 9 Jul 99 08:53:07 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id GAA27142 for whancients-list; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 06:37:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.182.168.60]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id GAA27136 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 06:36:59 -0700 (MST) Received: by GWMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:32:23 +0100 Message-ID: <2146350959CED211A51300A0C949BD903621EB@GWMAIL> From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: [WAB] Levies & Bowfire Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:32:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 9003 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Before I start, the following notes are really just me thinking out loud, and should not, under any circumstances be taken as official rules stuff. In particular, I'd appreciate if they were kept off your web sites, as they could cause all kinds of confusion. Basically, I've been thinking over a couple of the topics raised recently, and have some suggestions to make. Levies -------- The discussion on levies has given me a strange feeling of deje vu, mainly becuase we talked about similar things *waaaay* back in the WH 2-4th edition days. In the 3rd edition of the rules, characters had a Ld value and a bonus, say Ld 9+2. The bonus bit was what was added to other units Ld value if the character joined them. So An Ork Hero leading a unit of Goblins would bump their ld from 5 to 7, rather than from 5 to 9. The system got dumped in the 4th edition of the game because it was fiddly to use, and also because in games it seemed to have little real effect, and I must say I don't particularly like the idea of bringing it back into WAB for similar reasons. On the other hand I handicaping levy troops in some way sounds reasonable, as these guys really *should* be horribly unreliable. The best way I've seen suggested of sorting this out is to add a 'Levy' category of troop, and apply special rules to them. These are the rules I think could work: 1. Levy troops may not 'Fall Back In Good Order'. 2. Levy troops must always use their own Ld value for any tests, and do not benefit from the higher Ld value of attached characters, or generals that are within 12". Characters that are part of a levy use the levies Ld value instead of their own. 3. Non levy troops do not have to take panic tests if a unit of levies breaks within 12", or is fleeing within 4" at the start of the turn. Archery --------- Moving along from levies, and onto bowfire. I must say that I'm starting to come round to the idea that archery is probably a bit too effective in WAB. Actually, when we were playtesting the rules, most bows had a +1 save modifier (i.e they increased a targets save!), but we dropped this in the end as it made little difference in the games *we* played. I've emphasised the word we, because I think that our games are rather different to most of the games I read about on the list. For a start they tend to be scenarios with very specific objectives, played on large tables with quite small forces, which tended to make missile troop less useful as they had to move around a lot. And secondly we don't have all that many missile armed troops! Anyway, as I said, based on what I've been hearing, it seems that my initial inclination to tone down the effect of missile weapons for the ancient period had more going for it than I realised. *However*, the other reason for dropping the +1 save mod was that it just didn't 'feel' right - you simply don't get save mods that make armour better in Warhammer. Because of this I'm loath to bring it back, and have instead been considering all together more radical solution, which is to drop the strength of *all* bows and javelins to 2. This would not apply to Medieval Crossbows and Longbows, or to heavy throwing spears like the pilum, which I think should stay as they are, and probably shouldn't apply to slings. Now before I cause total panic, please remember these are just *ideas* (although I rather like them!). What do you guys think? Jervis From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Wed Jul 21 08:35:05 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id IAA67169 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:35:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id IAA10541 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:35:04 -0500 Received: from orion.starlink.com(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma010460; Wed, 21 Jul 99 08:34:12 -0500 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id GAA00617 for whancients-list; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:18:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.182.168.60]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id GAA00613 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:18:17 -0700 (MST) Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:13:19 +0100 Message-ID: <2146350959CED211A51300A0C949BD903B9989@mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk> From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: [WAB] More On Levies Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:13:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Thanks for the feedback on the levies and bowfire post. Based on what I've read I'm going to knock the Strength 2 bows idea on the head (but I've been liking the stuff I've been seeing on slings, etc), and try out the following version of the Levies rule in my next game. Before I write up the rule, however, I'll just say, once again, that this isn't an official change to the game, just something that I'll be trying out in my own games. Personally I don't think you can ever get a perfect set of wargame rules, and there's always something I want to tweak after I've played a game. To me this is part of what makes wargaming such a fun hobby - with wargame rules you can get in there and monkey about with the game mechanics in a way you can't with, say, a computer game. So, when I play a game I'm almost always trying out a new house rule or two. Not all of the house rules work, and many are cast aside never to be used again, but a few stick and end up becoming part of the core rules to the game, and with these, at some time or another they end up getting published and then become part of the 'official' (gosh, how I hate that word!) cannon of the rules. Until then, however, they should be looked upon as nothing more than ideas and house rules, to be used or cast aside in the same manner as any other house rule. Or in other words, it ain't official until you see it in print! Now, back to those levies... Levy Rules -------------- 1. Levy troops may not 'Fall Back In Good Order'. 2. Levy troops must always use their own Ld value for any tests, and do not benefit from the higher Ld value of attached characters, or generals that are within 12". Characters that are part of a levy use the levies Ld value instead of their own. (A harsh rule, I know, but to be honest I can't see levies being inspired by the presence of a leader). 3. Levy troops may not have a BS of higher than 2. Count any with a BS of 3+ as having a BS of 2 instead. 4. Levies fear all enemy units unless they outnumber them by 2-1 or more. Who Are Levies? --------------------- All of which begs the question, which troops count as levies? Here's my starting list... what do you guys think? Persian Levy Infantry Levy Phalanx Infantry, Light Infantry & Skirmishers (Alexander & Successors list) Indian Militia Longbowmen and Swordsmen Republican Levy Light Infantry (there some arguments against including these, but saves confusian to include them) Late Roman Limitanei Cataphract list Levy Spearmen, City Militia, Levy Archers Nomad horde Human Shields Samurai list Peasants That's all for now.... Jervis From owner-whancients@warpzone.com Wed Aug 4 08:14:38 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id IAA13329 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:14:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id IAA17030 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:12:33 -0500 Received: from unknown(209.63.71.2) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V4.2) id xma016951; Wed, 4 Aug 99 08:11:02 -0500 Received: by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id FAA21056 for whancients-list; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 05:44:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk (mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk [195.182.168.60]) by orion.starlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id FAA21052 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 05:44:19 -0700 (MST) Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:38:51 +0100 Message-ID: <2146350959CED211A51300A0C949BD9044514A@mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk> From: Jervis Johnson To: whancients@warpzone.com Subject: RE: [WAB] Question about darts... Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:38:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-whancients@warpzone.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: whancients@warpzone.com (WAB Mailing List) X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 [Warhammer Ancient Battles Mailing List] Clay is quite right, you can't throw darts when you charge, though you can use them as a missile weapon if you are charged yourself (i.e. you can stand and fire, or fire and flee). During playtesting we tried out several variants of the rules for 'additional light throwing weapons' like javelins and darts, which gave an advantage to charging troops that were armed with them (generally they got to re-roll missed hits). However we found that this was just too much of an advantage over troops that didn't have such weapons, and so decided to leave them as they are in Warhammer (fantasy), where they are treated as missile weapons and that's that! Sometimes it's hard to come up with a rule that gives a *minor* advantage to troops armed with a minor secondary weapon, much as the designer might like to be able to do so. So, rather than create a situation where darts became some kind of a super weapon, we erred on the side of down-playing their effect in the game. Jervis From JervisJ@games-workshop.co.uk Tue Oct 12 07:11:20 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id HAA13444 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:11:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id HAA00496 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:10:14 -0500 Received: from nodnsquery(195.182.168.60) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V5.0) id xma000471; Tue, 12 Oct 99 07:10:09 -0500 Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:03:17 +0100 Message-ID: <2146350959CED211A51300A0C949BD9068E20D@mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk> From: Jervis Johnson To: Anthony Edwards Subject: RE: I've got a personal question for you Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:03:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain X-Mozilla-Status: 9013 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hello Anthony, Thanks for the email, and apologies for the late reply - I've had flu and missed a few (more) days off work. An interesting question; I think I feel about mailing lists in pretty much the same way as any other member. They can be fun and interesting or irritating and frustrating by equal measure! The bottom line is that I get the same out of them as any other member. Probably the most difficult thing about mailing lists from the point of view of being a designer is that you can't just particiapte and join in the discusions, and people tend to take anything you say far too seriously. I must admit I've often considerd creating a new email address for myself and joining a list under an alias, just so that I can join in with things 'normally'. I've never done this because it would be a bit dishonest, but it's still a very tempting idea. The other problem I find about being a member of a list for a game I've designed is that I could comment on just about *everything* that comes up. When I first joined the 40K mailing list, this is just waht I did, and I soon found that I was devoting almost all my time and energy to the list rather than other things like my work. This was a valuable lesson, and now I restrict myself from joining in unless I have the time to do it. I also tend to try and restrict myself to answering questions where I *know* the answer, or to sending in ideas to be discussed by the list. Thanks again for an interesting question. Jervis > ---------- > From: Anthony Edwards > Sent: Tuesday, October 5, 1999 18:41 > To: Jervis Johnson > Subject: I've got a personal question for you > > Jervis, > > Don & I were talking about something entirely different, > but he asked the question below. How DO you feel about > the warhammer ancients mailing list? Being the neo-celebrity > sort, I can guarantee if you actually get the time to read > this & the luxury of being able to respond, it WILL NOT > go past Don & I. Are we annoying, something to do, a resource > for ideas, or just cheap & dirty market surveys. > > Just curious. > > And, btw, you did miss a really good discussion from > Phil Yates about the cost of light cavalry. You might > find the digests of that one worth reading. > > > A big fan, > > Tony > > -------- Original Message -------- > From: "Donald Effinger" > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [WAB] Don's request to Jervis > To: aedwards > > [boring irrelevant stuff snipped...] > > Hahahahahaha... you mean it isn't entertaining for everyone? I wonder how > JJ > views the list? Is is with a distain, entertainment, testing site or > annoyance? He seems to appear at odd times and is invisible at others. I > know he looks down at the NG's for sure and also the other lists even > though > he claims publically he likes the 40k one. I doubt it. > > Don > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From errors-333285-158-aedwards=tripos.com@onelist.com Fri Oct 22 09:28:00 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id JAA69711 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:27:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id JAA24713 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:28:13 -0500 Received: from nodnsquery(209.207.164.227) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V5.0) id xma024581; Fri, 22 Oct 99 09:27:19 -0500 Received: (qmail 28119 invoked by alias); 22 Oct 1999 14:28:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 28112 invoked from network); 22 Oct 1999 14:28:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (209.207.164.241) by pop1.onelist.com with QMQP; 22 Oct 1999 14:28:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk) (195.182.168.60) by mta2.onelist.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 1999 14:33:02 -0000 Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:18:50 +0100 Message-ID: <2146350959CED211A51300A0C949BD907057F5@mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk> From: Jervis Johnson To: WABlist@onelist.com, WAB Mailing List Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:18:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Mailing-List: list WABlist@onelist.com; contact WABlist-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list WABlist@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: WABlist@onelist.com Subject: [WABlist] Points Costs & Army List Philosophy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mozilla-Status: 8003 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 From: Jervis Johnson The debate on points costs has really been very interesting. More than anything I think it shows that there are 'more than one way to skin a cat'. Basically, the way you approach points values will be reflected in the army list you write. As I see writing army lists as more of an art than a science, and as something that should to an extent reflect the nature of the writer, I think it's a *good* thing to encourage a number of approaches to writing army lists (and therefore applying points values), as this will allow the list writier greater freedom to show his own unique perspective on an army. Of course there are limits; most importantly whatever points values that are used need to create armies that are pretty much balanced, or at least as balanced as such a subjective issue ever can be. However this still allows a lot of flexability from list to list, because as has already been mentioned, the points value a model is 'worth' is not just based on its stat line but also the 'shape' of the army of which it is a part. To go slightly off topic to illustrate th point, I've been doing a lot of work on the Space Wolves list for 40K recently, and have greatly reduced the cost of the Wolf Guard models in the list. More or less identical equivalents in the Space Marine list cost more, but the reduced cost for the Space Wolves characters is balanced out by a far more restrictive range of choices in their army list. *However*, I didn't have to construct the list this way, and indeed one of my playtesters has argued very strongly for a list that was nothing more than a minor varient of the Space Marine list. Since I'm the guy writing the list I got my way, but this doesn't change the fact that *either* method would have been equally valid, and equally as balanced (assuming I havn't cocked up of course, which is by no means unknown : (). So, in a fine example of fence-sitting, I'm saying that I can see both sides of this argument, and would be happy to see lists designed using either method for WAB. On a similar and related subject, I'm also quite happy for their to be lists around that allow players to create rather ahistorical armies, like a Roman army with a lot of elephants in it, for example. I've said this before, but I'll say it again; I've got nothing intrinsically against lists that allow this amount of flexability, and in fact I personally think it is rather a good thing. This is *not* to say that I think all other list writers should adopt such an approach, just that as long as a list is balanced I, personally, see nothing wrong with letting players have a free hand. Or to put it another way, if someone wants to collect a Roman army made up of all of the models that they think look cool, and which bears no resemblance to any actual Roman armies that took the field, then this doesn't bother me all that much. It's not what *I'd* choose to do, but hey, its a free world. Also, I have to say that if Trajan had turned around and said "I've had this great idea, get me 100 Elephants and a 1,000 camels for my army before we invade Dacia..." I can't see any earthly reason why he'd have been refused. Who knows, perhaps one day we'll find Trajan's Column II and find out that he did... Of course there is an important caveat to the above, and that's keeping the game balanced and fun. If a player maxing out on a troop type unbalances the game then this is a problem that needs to be fixed. However, that is quite a seperate issue as to whether fielding ahistorical armies, even grossly ahistorical ones, is wrong per se. Unfortunately the two things tended to end up being linked together, as player will often use an opponent's 'unrealistic army composition' as an excuse for their own defeat. Let's face it, none of us like to lose, and i know that I can be *very* creative in looking for a reason other than my own incompatence to explain a defeat ; ). So, I'd say that criticising a list *just* because it allows a player to field ahistorical armies is wrong, but that criticising a list because it allows a player to field unfair armies is perfectly justifiable. Now, time to get back to work on my Hollywood Ancient Battles list, so that I can have Xena, Julius Caeser *and* chartiots in my Roman army! Jervis --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Community email addresses: Post message: WABlist@onelist.com Subscribe: WABlist-subscribe@onelist.com Unsubscribe: WABlist-unsubscribe@onelist.com List owner: WABlist-owner@onelist.com Shortcut URL to this page: http://www.onelist.com/community/WABlist From sentto-333285-1028-aedwards=tripos.com@onelist.com Thu Nov 11 09:13:16 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id JAA43753 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:13:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id JAA25011 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:13:55 -0600 Received: from pop4.onelist.com(209.207.164.237) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V5.0) id xma024902; Thu, 11 Nov 99 09:13:28 -0600 Received: (qmail 1500 invoked by alias); 11 Nov 1999 15:13:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 1458 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1999 15:13:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (209.207.164.239) by pop4.onelist.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 1999 15:13:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gwmail.games-workshop.co.uk) (195.182.168.60) by mta1.onelist.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 1999 15:13:24 -0000 Received: by mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:04:16 -0000 Message-ID: <2146350959CED211A51300A0C949BD907E9DEC@mailserver.games-workshop.co.uk> From: Jervis Johnson To: WABlist@onelist.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:04:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Mailing-List: list WABlist@onelist.com; contact WABlist-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list WABlist@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: WABlist@onelist.com Subject: [WABlist] WAB & AoA Errata Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mozilla-Status: 9001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 From: Jervis Johnson As promised, here is the official errata sheet for WAB & AoA. Hopefully I haven't missed anything off, but if I have I'm sure you guys will remind me : ). Jervis ERRATA SHEET FOR WARHAMMER ANCIENT BATTLES & ARMIES OF ANTIQUITY This sheet includes all of the important errata for Warhammer Ancient Battles (WAB) and Armies of Antiquity (AoA). Some minor corrections have been left out of this sheet, on the basis that the correction will cause far more confusion than it resolves - or, to put it another way, the cure would be worse than the illness! Please note that these corrections can only be used for battles where both players knew about them before the battle began. Jervis Johnson, 11/11/99 Warhammer Ancient Battles Rerolls: A number of rules allow a unit to reroll a dice roll. Unless stated otherwise a reroll may be used every time the dice roll is failed, rather than once per battle. However, a single dice roll may not be rerolled more than once, and the result of the second roll must be accepted. P18, Charges: Charging units should be moved one at a time. If one unit's move blocks another unit from making a charge, then that other unit counts as having made a failed charge. Note that a unit whose charge is blocked may not redirect their charge against another unit, or 'swing round' to hit the flank or rear of the unit it was going to charge. P20, Marching: The only manoeuvre a marching unit can carry out is a wheel. It may not change formation, turn or reform. P26, Light Armour Save: Light armour provides a 6+ infantry save and a 5+ cavalry save, not 5+ and 4+ saves respectively as shown on the chart. P29, Which Models May Fight: Models may fight an opponent if they are touching diagonally (i.e. models can fight if the corners of their bases are in contact). P55, Shooting Through Skirmishers: Note that the 'gaps' between models that are in skirmish formation don't block the line of sight of an enemy unit. If you want to block fire from enemy units then you need to form your skirmishers into a 'cloud' several lines deep, so that models in the rear rows block the gaps in the front rows. P55, Skirmishers in Hand To Hand Combat: All the models from a charging unit that is in skirmish formation must contact the facing that a 'formed' unit would contact. Place any skirmishers that are left over behind the ones in the front rank. P57, Chariots: Unless a rule states otherwise then chariots are effected by psychology in the same way as cavalry. For example, if an enemy unit causes fear in cavalry then it causes fear in chariots as well. Leaders, standard bearers and musicians replace crew models, and thus you can possibly have several in a single chariot if desired. P58, Chariot Squadrons: Unengaged chariot models move into an ongoing combat in the same manner as skirmishers. Also note that excess wounds caused on engaged chariots 'carry on' to other chariots in the same squadron. P125, Roman Army List: Increase the cost of elephants to 125 points plus 8 per crew. P129, Barbarian Army List: Delete the Warrior On Foot line in the chariot entry. It is not needed and is not used (the warriors attacks are included in the chariot's characteristics). Armies Of Antiquity Inside front cover: 'Gousalves' should be amended to 'Gonsalves'. Inside front cover: The Battle of Cremona is attributed to 'Tacticus' instead of 'Tacitus'. P8, Trojan War: The general and any heroes must ride in chariots, bought at additional cost from the Chariotry section of the list. P13, Achaemenid Persians Spara Bearers: Change the second and forth 'bullets' as follows: A unit that remains stationary in the movement phase may set up a spara barrier. A spara barrier is knocked down if the unit moves or at the end of the first round of combat that it fights (whether it wins or loses). Also, note that a spara barrier counts as an obstacle, so units fighting across them or defending behind them may not use their rank bonus in the first round of combat. P14, Achaemenid Persians Allies: The Persian army may include allied troops from the Ancient Greek army list as part of their Special Troops allocation. P14, Ancient Greek: The army general may be upgraded to a Spartan army general at a cost of +25 pts. Spartan army generals are drilled and stubborn. Elephants, scythed and heavy chariots may charge the front of a phalanx, light chariots may not. P16, Alexander & His Successors: Unengaged models in a wedge may only use their attacks against an enemy unit that was charged by the wedge. Hypaspists may be given light armour at +2 pts per model. Elephants, scythed and heavy chariots may charge the front of a phalanx, light chariots may not. Also, please note that the rules for the Macedonian phalanx are meant to be different to those of the Ancient Greek phalanx. The change represents the professionalism of Macendonian and Successor phalangites compared to the citizen militia that made up a typical Ancient Greek phalanx. P18, Ancient Indian: The Indian Longbow was a long and rather unwieldy weapon. Because of this models armed with longbows do not get to shoot twice if mounted in a chariot or riding an elephant. Indian swordsmen may replace their double-handed swords with throwing spears and javelins at no additional cost. P25, Late Roman: The Comitatense option for Late Roman Heavy cavalry is in fact unlimited and the 0-1 restriction should be ignored. Heavy cavalry may replace their shield for a large shield for +1 point. In addition the Special Rule for Heavy Cavalry should read "Cataphracts use the special rules in the Cataphract army list." rather than the sentence that is actually printed there. Also, please note that if you are using the Craig Davey option then the army may include units of stubborn/drilled Guard or units of Guards using the increased profile, not both. P30, Nomadic Hordes: A unit that uses feigned flight and flees off the table is lost and may not return later in the battle. P34, Saxons: The single unit of Huscarls can have a leader, standard and so on, and these can be allocated out to units of Fryd along with other models. If the Fryd have their own such models, then leaders work normally (+1 attack each if in contact with the enemy), but there is no additional bonus for having multiple standards and musicians. P40, Crusaders: Please note that Knights and Sergeants are mounted on warhorses, even though the characteristic line for the warhorse was missed out. See the entries for the army general or army battle standard for the warhorses characteristics. P45, Samurai: Increase the cost of Samurai cavalry to 35 points and Samurai infantry to 20 points. Wakato should have a Ld value of 5. P46, Cavalry Counter-Charges: Light chariots may counter-charge, but elephants, heavy chariots and scythed chariots may not. P46, Falling Back In Good Order: In circumstances where a unit would normally break automatically (if beaten in combat by charging Norman Knights for example), then a unit will automatically fall back in good order instead. Units that move off the table while falling back in good order are lost and may not return. P46, Characters in Chariots and on Elephants: A character whose armour save is worse (after modification for shield bearers etc.) than that of the his mount may use the mount's saving throw instead. All his other characteristics remain the same, even if lower than those of the mount. P46, Elephant Howdahs: The lists make no mention of which elephants have howdahs. To resolve this, if the Elephant model (as sold) has a howdah treat the model as having one in game terms. If no howdah is on the model it does not gain this bonus. Converted howdahs are fine if you've got some historical basis for giving the elephant a howdah. P47, Ancient Britons: In section 4 replace the third 'bullet point' (the one that starts 'The player controlling...') with the following: * To represent the trick of the warriors in the chariot dismounting to fight on foot, the formation counts as having a rank bonus of +1 if there are 8-11 models in the unit, and +2 if there are 12 or more models in the unit. --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Community email addresses: Post message: WABlist@onelist.com Subscribe: WABlist-subscribe@onelist.com Unsubscribe: WABlist-unsubscribe@onelist.com List owner: WABlist-owner@onelist.com Shortcut URL to this page: http://www.onelist.com/community/WABlist From sentto-333285-1234-aedwards=tripos.com@onelist.com Mon Nov 15 03:54:51 1999 Received: from gatekeeper.tripos.com (firewall.tripos.com [172.20.1.2]) by tripos.com (980919.SGI.STAND) via SMTP id DAA94166 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:54:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tripos.com (SMI-8.6) id DAA11558 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 03:58:13 -0600 Received: from unknown(209.207.164.229) by gatekeeper.tripos.com via smap (V5.0) id xma011522; Mon, 15 Nov 99 03:57:48 -0600 Received: (qmail 9544 invoked by alias); 15 Nov 1999 09:57:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 9515 invoked from network); 15 Nov 1999 09:57:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (209.207.164.241) by pop1.onelist.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 1999 09:57:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gwmail.games-work